One of the great merits of Britain is that Britishness is not principally an ethnic but rather a civic identity. The four home nations are ethnic realities finding subsidiary juridical expression within the civic whole of the United Kingdom. It is of course quite possible for immigrant populations to acquire Welsh, Irish, Scottish or English ethnic identity through intermarriage and cultural assimilation (hopefully not a one sided assimilation), but this is a natural process taking a few generations or a lifetime at least. One can become British in an instant by swearing an oath of loyalty to Elizabeth II and receiving British citizenship. It is far preferable (as I believe Pius XII said during one of his war-time Christmas Addresses) that civic and ethnic units not coincide exactly. In some ways it would seem that Britain is the opposite of the United States: four nations in one state rather than fifty states in one nation. But this does not quite do justice to the matter. Britain, though composed of nations, is also a nation itself.
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I was discussing this yesterday with someone who thinks that the nationhood of Britain can be justified simply on the basis of the shared civic tradition since 1603 and (more intensely) 1707. It seems to me that this would not be enough to justify the term nation. Mere dynastic or legal union of ethnic nations does not produce a composite national identity of itself. This, it seems to me, is illustrated by inter alia the Austrian and Russian dominions.
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The British case is closest to that of Spain. Here we have a basic ethnic and geographical unity interrupted by barbarian invasion in late antiquity. This invasion led to the splitting of Spain into many different realms which in turn were reunited in the early modern period. The split, however, lasted so long that many of the subsidiary identities became felt as national identities and in the end, through the vicissitudes of Habsburg decline in the seventeenth century, one of the Spanish kingdoms broke away and became independent – Portugal.
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Britain too has a basic ethnic unity. The term Britain originally referred to the entire island group with the largest island called Albion and the second largest Erin. This is the original sense recorded as far back as the fourth century BC. One of the earliest uses of the term (by Diodorus) is a reference to the second island. I am reliably informed by a expert on the subject from Edinburgh University that the P and Q Celtic languages of Albion and Erin were probably still essentially the same language and certainly mutually intelligible at the beginning of the Christian era. The beginning of the distinction into four nations comes with the Roman invasion. Agricola was completing the conquest of Albion and was planning the conquest of Erin when he was recalled to Rome by an envious Domitian. This fateful event created the first division between the far north of Albion, never incorporated into the Roman Province, and between Albion and Erin. Further confusing matters the Romans, as was their custom, named their province after the whole of the region they had originally intended to conquer – Britannia. This led to the confusing use of Britain to denote merely Albion. This was partially resolved later in the middle ages when the term Great Britain arose to distinguish Albion from the other Islands and Armorica (which had been renamed after its ex-pat British population). The Q Celts called the remaining portion of the larger Island by the term originally used for the Island as a whole – Alba.
The second stage in the distinction came in the Roman province itself through the withdrawal of regular troops in 410. The Anglo Saxon invasions drove the British inhabitants to the west of the island of Albion. It seems from modern DNA testing hat the ‘English’ are still mostly of British descent but they have lost their language and identify themselves with the Germanic military aristocracy that conquered most of the Roman Province. This is eerily confirmed by the fact that all orally transmitted English folk stories whose origins precede the Norman Conquest are Welsh in origin, with the sole exception of ‘Jack and the Beanstalk’. Those Roman Britons who retained their language and remembered who they were became the Cymry (Citizens) or Welsh (Foreigners). So began the process of solidification into four home nations. The Picts (un-Romanised Britons) were eventually assimilated by Irish invaders (Scoti) and lost their original identity as the English had done. Nevertheless the older identity survived in various ways and occasionally looked capable of political revivial. The chief Anglo-Saxon ruler still called himself Bretwalda (Latin: Rex Britanniae). Oswy of Northumbria exercised almost as wide a dominion as James VI. Bede begins and ends his History by talking of Britain not England. But, partly because of Bede’s famous ‘Non Angli sed Angli’ story, when England was finally united into a single kingdom it was called the Regnum Angliae not the Regnum Britanniae. The legends of King Arthur which were such an important part of insular (and wider mediaeval) culture insured that the idea of Britain could not be wholly forgotten. .
The Papal grant of Ireland to Henry II (later confirmed as a royal title under Philip and Mary), the English conquest of Wales and the accession of the Maid of Norway could have combined to create a political Britain hundreds of years early. Margaret’s death and Edward I’s attempt to annex Scotland by force made this impossible. .
The accession of a Welsh dynasty with Arthurian pretensions (the Tudors) coincided with the Marriage (Margaret Tudor and James IV) which ultimately actually accomplished what James VI called “the blessed Union, or rather Reuniting” of Britain. The Union Jack and the style ‘King of Great Britain’ date from this moment not from the Hanoverian Union of the Parliaments in 1707 (though James VI desired a parliamentary union). After the Union of 1801 George III took the royal style Britanniarum Rex and dropped the ‘Great’ in recognition of the complete parliamentary union of Britain. This remains the royal style in Latin. The Latin title of the United Kingdom as it appears on the Great Seal is Regnum Britanniarum. The proclamation of 1801 also added the St Patrick’s Cross to the Union Jack. The St Patrick’s Cross is not (as is often alleged) a Hanoverian invention. It appears very clearly on the seal and arms of Trinity College Dublin as the flag of Ireland. Trinity was founded before the Union of 1603 and its arms were certainly in use by 1612.
Thus the various Unions of 1603, 1707 and 1801 are not the basis of the national claims of Britain as an entity. Aristotle says that the earliest societies are hereditary monarchies because they grow out of the family. This tends to pass away as such units federate into ‘Cities’. We owe our parents obedience and honour as children but honour and respect as adults. The development from Monarchical government to a Constitutional Monarchy is not perhaps so unnatural. Only a universal empire can possess a purely civic identity. The hereditary monarchy which actually accomplished the union of the British Isles fittingly expresses the ethnic identity of Britain which preceded and defines the ethnic identities of the four nations and creates the space for the civic concept of British patriotism which prevents the much stronger ethnic identities of the four nations degenerating into racial nationalism. The existence of Britain insures that even in the emotional moments of patriotic feeling for one’s own nation and/or state one is reminded that “men should brothers be and form one family the wide world o’er”.

September 26, 2007 at 11:54 pm
Oh dear. I;ll pretend I didnt read that or me and you are going to fall out badly.
PS.
I was right about the unionist slip then..:-)
September 27, 2007 at 12:56 am
So, Mr Teuchtar of the Nationalist Slip (!) – this is going to sound like an inflammatory question but actually it’s something that occurs to me from time to time and that I don’t think I’ve heard addressed by a Nationalist. What do you do with people like me who have British identities? Should Scots not feel British? Is neither the past 300 years nor (arguably) the original Britishness of the Pryteni allowed to have any meaning? Seriously, what’s the Nationalist answer for us?
September 27, 2007 at 9:20 pm
The same as the answer was for nationalists in the union I would imagine. The same as for Tories now under Labour. The same as for Labour supporters when Tories are in power. The same as for Labour now Scotland has a NATIONALIST government. Do you have some divine right to live in the kind of state you want? It wasn’t given to me or my Scots Gaelic ancestors for 300 years. Why should you have it? Brit’s perogative?
Your nationalism is no different from mine. Your assertions about my language and ethnicity are a slight on my culture. Theres a word you forgot. Culture. There is no British culture. That proves to me it isnt a nation, whatever your history, You think about that.
What unites you and I is the bread and the chalice. Not some fandangled idea of Britishness that goes back to Adam.
September 27, 2007 at 9:54 pm
Cups of tea and queueing. Think about that. Seriously, I know it sounds flippant; but I cannot see any basis for denying the existence of a British culture, which is at the very least the sum of its parts.
Scottishness is not (necessarily) assaulted by a British state – as it happens (perhaps it is only happenstance, but still), we have our own legal system, our own education system, our own established Protestant sect. As it happens, our royal dynasty inherited the English crown. Etc..
Now the Scots Gaelic issue is a very interesting one, but I don’t see that Scottish nationalism (in its current form) serves your purpose – after all, the Gaelic element of the nation has been treated extremely ambivalently (to say the least) by the government of Scotland since the later fourteenth century. You may think it is unfair and ahistorical that Lothian has, essentially, been politically supreme in Scotland for a good 650 years – one might make a case for it; but that would result in something very different to the SNP…
I really don’t mean to raise these points in a confrontational way; I am – as (in no particular order) an historian, a Scot, a Briton and a voter – genuinely curious as to the substance of your case for the denial of Britishness as a real category of history, identity and, yes, culture. I was the person arguing that Aelianus was putting too much weight on late antique Britishness; but there is certainly no doubt that there is at the very least (and I will probably be willing to go further) an identifiable loose conceptual continuity between the linguistic identity of the inhabitance of the British Isles in the fifth century or so, and our notion of Britain.
Obviously the Eucharist is infinitely more important than any of this politics! Goes without saying – I hope! Pax et bonum tibi!
September 27, 2007 at 9:55 pm
Er, ‘inhabitants’. Oops.
September 27, 2007 at 10:11 pm
(Supplementary: I do understand that folk make cases for Scottish independence on the grounds of economic utility or similar. Personally I don’t buy the specific cases being made, and in any case they seem so close-run that I don’t think they outweigh the complete superfluity of artifically disecting Britain. But I take it that is not the kind of case you are keenest to make? Again, this is not meant to be inflammatory, bad-tempered, etc; merely clarificatory!)
September 27, 2007 at 11:31 pm
Boeciana
I know that the Lords of the Isles had a power that the Scottish Monarch envied and were suspicious of. I know about the tensions that culminated in outright hostility. ( I am a MacDonald)
But I find your reference to this ( I assume) in the context of the declining history of the Gaels and our language quite misleading given Culloden and the aftermath. ?You know what I mean.
My parents were forbidden to speak Gaelic in their school. They were physically punished for doing so. (A trait not unknown in other Celtic nations, P’s and Q’s on the British isles and outwith – but still under their “empire”.)
Was this because of 14th Century Scottish court politic? I put it to you it wasn’t.
Aside from all that, and the tainted history you try to pass of as GREAT BRITISHNESS, I am quite open to Scottish Nationalism on the basis of national self – determination and economic prosperity.
British Culture you said. Whats that? Give me an example of British Culture.. British music? Writing? Dance? Language? Liturgy?
British Culture? It doesn’t exist.
Pax
CT
September 28, 2007 at 12:29 am
I am a Northumbrian. My bagpipes and plaid are respectively centuries and a millennium older than yours. Does that mean you should repudiate them as instruments of English imperialism? Your language was never spoken in large regions of South East Scotland, can we have them back then as they are clearly not Scottish? Irish, Scottish, English and Welsh culture was British culture before Britain was united under a single Monarch or constituted as single State. English is not just the language of the English and Gaelic is not the indigenous language of Alba. It is still spoken in Ireland and is indeed the official language of Eire. It was not English speakers who extinguished Pictish. Gaelic and English are both British languages they both form part of British culture just like plaid and bagpipes. Centralising governments in France, the UK and Scotland before the Union have all obstructed linguistic minorities. This has nothing to do with the merits or demerits of the Union. You will presumably claim the cultural achievement of any Briton for national particularism on the grounds that he or she comes from one of the four nations regardless of whether they accepted the separation upon which you insist. The monarchy, the heritage of Empire (good and ill) and the sacrifices of two world wars are clearly common to the entire United Kingdom. I don’t know if you are aware of this but Churchill offered to bring about the reunification of Ireland regardless of unionist opposition if de Valera would – not abandon neutrality – but just permit the Royal Navy to use the treaty ports to protect Atlantic convoys. De Valera turned him down. The festering secular grievance it seems is more important than resisting genocidal racism or even than achieving the cause for which it is supposedly maintained. It is only to the insular (excuse the pun) observer that the things which distinguish the various parts of the British Isles appear greater than all they have in Common. Even these distinguishing features stubbornly refuse to be neatly packaged and hermetically sealed within the borders of the home nations. To quote the philosopher, distinguish in order to unite!
September 28, 2007 at 5:23 am
“Give me an example of British Culture..”
Hmmm, let’s see… G.K. Chesterton? Elgar? “Posh” & “Becks”? Queen Elizabeth? Cups of tea? Marks & Spencers? Remembrance Day? The Labour Party? Sherlock Holmes? George Orwell? Oasis/Radiohead/Franz Ferdinand? Victorian architecture? The BBC? Fish and chips? Football?
September 28, 2007 at 2:46 pm
Nice list of Great British traditions. You forgot bangers and mash.
Lets try it with big “C” culture.
Traditional British language?
Traditional British dance?
Traditional British dress?
Traditional British music?
Can you think of another ancient nation that doesn’t tick all of the above boxes?
September 28, 2007 at 2:55 pm
Pub culture and football sum up British culture now. Chesterton and Elgar are long gone – and where is the good old stiff upper lip?
September 28, 2007 at 4:06 pm
Traditional British language?
That used by Arthur Conan Doyle and PD James, that used by Sir Walter Scott and Charles Dickens, that used by Robert Louis Stevenson and Rudyard Kipling…..
Traditional British dance?
Ballet? Country dancing? Disco? Which do you mean? If you’re talking of Scottish Country Dance – there are planty of jigs and reels in English Country Dancing but not so many Strathspeys
Traditional British dress?
Jeans… probably. Kilts only get a showing at weddings and First Communions and are generally worn (inappropriately) by lowland types and Englishmen (like me)
Traditional British music?
A shared heritage that produces both MacMillan and Mark-Anthony Turnage (or Franz Ferdinand and Snow Patrol for that matter)
September 28, 2007 at 4:10 pm
We’ll all have to acknowledg our common debt to Polonia soon, anyway:
http://www.thenews.pl/archives/1207-Gibson,-De-Niro-in-Polish-big-budget-film-project.html
September 28, 2007 at 5:07 pm
Ever after having read Stevenson’s ‘Kidnapped’ and having seen some photographs of the Scottish highlands Scotland I have been in love with Scotland. However, it seemed quite natural for me to extend my affection on Great Britain as a whole – including England, which I visited before I ever had the opportunity to go to Scotland. It never dawned on me that there might be anything wrong with my attitude before a sat with rather painful toothaches on the chair of the Scottish dentist. In the course of conversation which he started I expressed in very warm words my feelings about Scotlands, accidentilly adding that I had also been in Somerset and liked it very much, too. I instantly added: ‘But Scotland is MUCH more beautiful’ as probably everyone would have done if they had seen the face of thee dentist, the drill already in his hand, growing dark an thunderous at my compliment towards that English county.
I certainly cannot give any capital-C examples for British culture, but I will insist that there are masses of details which tell me instantly that I am in Britain, and nowhere else, that are exactly the same in Dover, Tauton, Braemar or Aberdeen
September 28, 2007 at 6:58 pm
Yes, on the culture front, our language is now a British one (formed, perhaps, primarily in the C18, when the language of the political elite became standardised). Certain authors, at least, I think are certainly British – Trollope and Graham Greene come to mind instantly. It’s a good point that major architectural trends since at least the C18 have tended to be Britain-wide, with the local variations one expects.
But I really wouldn’t bash the traditions of little ‘c’ culture – these are enormously important in identity formation. Queueing and cups of tea are not only, or originally, either Scottish or English. Yes, ‘British values’ are in crisis, etc, but Scotland’s in pretty poor shape all by herself in terms of ethical consensus blahdiblah.
As I have said, why are those of us who do identify as British wrong? In what way are we deluded?
With regards to the history of Gaeldom within Scotland and Britain: I do not deny that (as far as I know, and I am not a modern historian so this is not very far) that Gaelicness was attacked by various British governments. I repeat, however, that it does not make any very good sense to associate the cause of Gaelic language and culture with Scottish nationalism as such, since the kingdom of Scotland has never been a kingdom only of this culture or even primarily of this culture. You may wish to make a case that Scots Gaelic culture (again, a problematic entity, surely, given the common literary culture crossing the Irish Sea; but that’s another matter) may be given more state support in an independent Scotland; but that would be an entirely contingent argument based on predicted future policies that has nothing to do with the intrinsic relationships between the Gaidhealtachd [sorry if misspelt!], Scotland and Britain.
September 29, 2007 at 3:21 am
Hello, here’s me, the colonial, pushing in again. I think any figure who was actually born in Ireland but was the toast of England and whose work is featured in English Lit classes is “British” instead of English/Scottish/Welsh/Northern Irish. For example, Oscar Wilde, C.S. Lewis and George Bernard Shaw. Tartan, too, is rather “British” for lo, there are tartan and pipebands aplenty in ceremonial Canada, and not because of the Scots, entirely. (Kilts, though, remain Scots– and Scots-Canadian, for Gaelic is still spoken in Nova Scotia and we still have Highland Regiments.) Meanwhile I will add another list, for it pleases me to ponder this subject, since Old Canada (i.e. English-speaking Canada before 1963) thought of itself as British, and my forefathers fought under the Union Jack, which was our flag until 1967 or whatever it was.
1. Tea is British.
2. Toast with scrape is British.
3. Gravy is British, unless made with roux for then it is French.
4. Incessant rain in British, although also Irish.
5. The Stiff Upper Lip was British; not sure what happened.
6. The class system based on family & accent was/is British. (In America it is based on money. We think that too in Canada, but actually the ruling class, mostly invisible, is ethnically English/Scots and based on banking families & newspaper magnates.)
7. The Union Jack is British.
8. Major Grey’s peach chutney is British, unless you can only get it in Canada, and then it is probably ersatz-Canadian-British, and I apologize.
9. British children’s fiction is British and makes a lot of foreign children (esp. colonials) British, too, in an out-of-date way you probably all find weird.
10. Going to war in 1914 and 1939 was British, and why Canada is British and not bally American. Not that I have it in for the Ya.. our American cousins, but jumping to the defense of Belgium and then Poland was British, and we did it and Some People didn’t.
September 29, 2007 at 9:15 am
As a descendent of those savage Magyars who used to terrorise all of Europe, with the exception of foggy Albion, undoubtedly, I am all but incompetent to contribute to this discussion. But for heaven’s sake! Oasis/Radiohead/Franz Ferdinand as part of British cultural heritage? With the possible exception of Radiohead and Coldplay – undeservedly I may add – all of this will eventually be thrown unto the dungheap of history. If one is inclined to include contemporary rock music in the enduring deposit of British culture, let us rather talk about the great 70’s bands like YES, artists like Eric Clapton, or Marillion, Threshold, and the like. I have no intention to divert the discussion but only in movies like Ratatouille do mice become the greatest chefs of all time!
September 29, 2007 at 2:39 pm
The undesirable often has the sad aspect of also being the undeniable.
But I believe we were speaking of British culture as it currently stands, not cultural “heritage” per se.
September 29, 2007 at 10:41 pm
Well, in that case, I subside for I haven’t been in Britain for 11 years and thus have no clue, except what I read by Theodore Dalrymple, and I do hope that is not the whole picture.
September 29, 2007 at 11:22 pm
your struggling then folks?
September 30, 2007 at 3:54 pm
Struggling?
Western Europe, including Scotland and the rest of Britain, is in a right old mess spiritually, philosophically, etc etc.. No Catholic disagrees much with that, I presume?
That has nothing to do with the existence of plenty of British traditions or ’small c culture’, and the existence of such things is undeniable. (But sorry, Seraphic; I’ve never heard of Major Grey’s!)
Neither has it anything to do with the existence of strands and artisans of high culture which can be identified as British – by which I mean, respectively, currents like architectural trends, and people (writers, painters, composers). With people in particular, not only did many individuals in their careers draw on resources and institutions that are British (again I mention Trollope, given the great importance of the idea of Parliament in his work), but also at least some individuals in their persons incorporate peculiarly British elements (one thinks of CS Lewis, who, while denying that one could be patriotic about the whole of Britain, nonetheless – as an Ulsterman [as he called himself] whose life’s work was as a great Oxbridge don – led an outstandingly British life!). Crucially, it seems to me, there are certain trends and people whom it would be misleading to assign only to one of the four nations.
Is your idea that those of us who think we are British are actually only (say) Scottish, but with a seasoning of tastes, habits, etc, picked up from other parts of the country via the ambient culture? But if that’s what you’re thinking, to which nation should tea, pub etiquette, queueing, etc, be assigned? I don’t think any one of them could really be said to have dibs. (I appreciate, I think, that you think these things are too silly to be markers of a nation or key parts of an identity, but I, um, don’t. Just think how unsettling it is to be in countries where folk just don’t queue! And where you get a teabag and a cup of warm water!)
I am still unclear as to why you seem a) to be denying that the break-up of the Union would involve the destruction of a nation (even if you think that nation’s existence was historically unjustified, or whatever), and b) to be identifying the cause of Scottish nationalism with the cause of Gaelic cultural autonomy (if that’s the right way to put it). I am especially interested in the latter question, with my historian’s hat on! Please don’t think these are disingenuous questions!
September 30, 2007 at 4:03 pm
your struggling then folks?
What a bizarre thing to say.
To quote Potter Stewart (in a very different context):
I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it.
September 30, 2007 at 7:07 pm
Here’s a question: how will Ulster’s Unionists/Loyalists cease to be ‘British’ if the Six Counties became united, politically with the current 26 counties of the Irish Republic?
As with Boeciana, not disingenuous. I just want to explore the ideas.
September 30, 2007 at 9:31 pm
Re: Major Grey. Dang! Well, I stand by gravy-made-from-fat-and-flour and add Yorkshire pudding, mince tarts and trifle at Christmas.
How heartening that Europe is now worrying about national identity when we have been worrying about it for at least forty-five years. Or rather–confusing. At least we know what “Italian-Canadian” “means”; what will it mean for us when immigrants from Italy are ethnically Sri Lankan, but speak Italian? Never mind “national identity”: what will ethnicity mean?
September 30, 2007 at 9:37 pm
To muddify cloudy waters, what does “Scots” mean now? In the Harry Potter movies, Professor McGonagall is a Scot (and also Jean Brodie, someone tell Dumbledore), but so is Cho Chang. Right? Yes? No? Is she as “much” as Scot as McGonagall or is there something about one’s family having lived in Scotland (and died for Scotland) since 1066 (or 1847) that makes McGonagall more “Scots” than Cho Chang?
Sorry to introduce this can of worms, which you may certainly ignore, but this is a question in Canada too. (And a highly unpopular one, I must say, since our obviously mendacious mantra hereabouts is “We are ALL immigrants.”)
October 1, 2007 at 12:07 am
While there are, as the previous comments have indicated, many features of British culture common to all four nations and many which overlap the different home nations, (and while it is indeed spurious to identify Gaelic culture with Scottish culture), there is a more obvious flaw to the whole idea of identifying specifically ‘British’ cultural themes. If someone says ‘there is no such thing as the genus of animal, only particular species’ it is a fools’ errand to try to find an animal which is only generically an animal with no specific difference. One would end up deciding that Jellyfish are the only animals. In the same way every actual Briton and British cultural tradition is found in one or other of the four nations this does not prove that these individuals and traditions belong exclusively to the home nation in question and are non-British. If one were to accept this completely circular argument one will end up designating as British only the purely generic characteristics of all four nations or those which have been exported to the Commonwealth. These are great goods, mixed monarchy, democracy and the common law, queuing, tea and decent beer. Nevertheless, all the particular elements of Britain are British too and it is only if one assumes in advance the Nationalist conclusion that Britishness is a construct that their British character could be denied.
October 1, 2007 at 10:14 pm
Seraphic: On the Cho vs McGonagall question – someone like Katie Leung who sounds as Edinburgh as they come, I’d describe as Scottish, and if asked for elaboration would add ‘originally Chinese’ or ‘of Chinese ancestry’ or something like that. For me, if someone has a Scottish accent, I’ll call them ‘Scottish’ (unless they insist otherwise); likewise if someone was born here and is happy to be considered Scottish regardless of accent (by this I include people with not-very-Scottish accents, and exclude folk who happened to be born here cos their mum was on holiday or whatever). If appearance suggests their family doesn’t go back to the Picts, this is a fact that would pertain to ‘origin’ or ‘ancestry’. I wouldn’t describe Cho Chang as ‘Scottish-Chinese’. However, how she would describe herself, I do not know and would not care to guess! Besides which, certain groups (like the Italians) in Scotland seem to consider their family’s origin as one of their major labels even after several generations. So, er, ask someone of an ethnic minority for a more informed answer! Does anyone else have a fuller answer?
October 2, 2007 at 11:34 am
For me, if someone has a Scottish accent, I’ll call them ‘Scottish’ (unless they insist otherwise); likewise if someone was born here and is happy to be considered Scottish regardless of accent (by this I include people with not-very-Scottish accents, and exclude folk who happened to be born here cos their mum was on holiday or whatever).
My accent changes a lot as I’m omething of a chameleon. After a morning in clinic with my East End punters, it has something of a Weegie burr. If I’ve been on the phone to my sister I sound as though I’ve just stepped of the train from Leeds with a whippet and a flat cap.
Mrs P is an Edinburger of English parents. she sounds English most of the time unless on the phone to her mates or in her cups – thereafter she sounds like an extra from Trainspotting
Not sure the accent test will do. Think about Tony Blair – remember his estuary accent on ‘Richard and Judy’? (remember too he’s Scots born and educated -well, Fettes – who grew up in Northumberland and Australia but lived most of his adult life in the higher echelons of London metropolitan life)
October 2, 2007 at 11:53 am
My accent is similarly treacherous – that’s why I put in the alternative qualification!
I would also repeat that I’m talking about how I perceive people, which is why I added the ‘happy to be considered Scottish’ – someone like Tony Blair is a funny case, since one would think he’s technically Scottish but I have no idea whether or not he would allow the label. That funny quasi-colonial class of people who went to public schools in Scotland can decide what they are for themselves. I don’t mean this in a mean way; it’s just that as far as I can can tell some people who’ve been to Glenalmond (or wherever) are quite sure they’re Scots, while others, well, aren’t.
October 3, 2007 at 1:32 am
My gift essay question for my Standard Grade English folio was something like “How I Feel About Being Scottish”. Though I may by now belong to an ethnic majority …
October 3, 2007 at 11:20 pm
post on this subject
http://prodicus.blogspot.com/2007/09/is-britishness-merely-state-of-mind.html
February 3, 2008 at 2:37 pm
“It seems from modern DNA testing hat the English are still mostly of British descent but they have lost their language and identify themselves with the Germanic military aristocracy that conquered most of the Roman Province. This is eerily confirmed by the fact that all orally transmitted English folk stories whose origins precede the Norman Conquest are Welsh in origin, with the sole exception of Jack and the Beanstalk.”
Actually from the more reliable tests, South of the Thames is the area with the majority Brythonic Ancestry, the North East and East being more ‘Continental’, not that this matters as it cannot tell us the genetic make up of those 1000 years ago, only today…there is no way to tell either way.
You are incorrect about the oldest folktales being Welsh in origin. The Welsh (such as ‘Arthurian’) tales are actually (in England) from after the Norman Invasion. It was in fact William the Bastard’s joke to almost force a Brythonic hero on who had been his traditional foes. William was of course partly Breton as well as Norse.
Maybe the more famous English folktales are post Norman or Welsh, but many do obviously come from a pre-Norman common Germanic tradition (hence the close parallels in many of the continental Germanic cultures). This is because English folklore generally comes from the old English Religion (of Woden, Thunor, Tiw…etc…) and so will share certain features with the other folklores that derive from the same root.
Remember the tales of King Arthur are mainly poetry rather than orally transmitted tales, by them being folklore so could be classed that of Widsith, Beowulf and Deor.
So none of this proves much really.
There is no such thing as a British Ethnicity in my opinion, merely various assorted Ethnic groups sharing the same island.
February 3, 2008 at 4:18 pm
As I understand it Beowulf survives in only one manuscript and there is no evidence of subsequent oral transmission. Many Arthurian tales have obviously been transmitted orally in England in variant forms. It is notable that Gawaine is more popular here than on the continent. We only know of any folk tale because it was eventually written down. Where is your evidence that the Arthurian tales were all imported to England by Normans? I should like to see your references on the DNA tests as well as several historians of the period I have spoken to have contradicted you. You are obviously right that we would have to determine what we meant by ethnicity and somehow discover the original DNA mix before the Saxon migrations began. This may be more difficult or impossible, the modern Welsh being the nearest we can get.
February 28, 2009 at 4:54 am
I’m British.