Comments on: British Identity

By: Olivia

Olivia — Sat, 28 Feb 2009 02:54:52 +0000

I’m British.

By: aelianus

aelianus — Sun, 03 Feb 2008 14:18:09 +0000

As I understand it Beowulf survives in only one manuscript and there is no evidence of subsequent oral transmission. Many Arthurian tales have obviously been transmitted orally in England in variant forms. It is notable that Gawaine is more popular here than on the continent. We only know of any folk tale because it was eventually written down. Where is your evidence that the Arthurian tales were all imported to England by Normans? I should like to see your references on the DNA tests as well as several historians of the period I have spoken to have contradicted you. You are obviously right that we would have to determine what we meant by ethnicity and somehow discover the original DNA mix before the Saxon migrations began. This may be more difficult or impossible, the modern Welsh being the nearest we can get.

By: Widsith

Widsith — Sun, 03 Feb 2008 12:37:06 +0000

“It seems from modern DNA testing hat the �English� are still mostly of British descent but they have lost their language and identify themselves with the Germanic military aristocracy that conquered most of the Roman Province. This is eerily confirmed by the fact that all orally transmitted English folk stories whose origins precede the Norman Conquest are Welsh in origin, with the sole exception of �Jack and the Beanstalk�.”

Actually from the more reliable tests, South of the Thames is the area with the majority Brythonic Ancestry, the North East and East being more ‘Continental’, not that this matters as it cannot tell us the genetic make up of those 1000 years ago, only today…there is no way to tell either way.

You are incorrect about the oldest folktales being Welsh in origin. The Welsh (such as ‘Arthurian’) tales are actually (in England) from after the Norman Invasion. It was in fact William the Bastard’s joke to almost force a Brythonic hero on who had been his traditional foes. William was of course partly Breton as well as Norse.

Maybe the more famous English folktales are post Norman or Welsh, but many do obviously come from a pre-Norman common Germanic tradition (hence the close parallels in many of the continental Germanic cultures). This is because English folklore generally comes from the old English Religion (of Woden, Thunor, Tiw…etc…) and so will share certain features with the other folklores that derive from the same root.

Remember the tales of King Arthur are mainly poetry rather than orally transmitted tales, by them being folklore so could be classed that of Widsith, Beowulf and Deor.

So none of this proves much really.

There is no such thing as a British Ethnicity in my opinion, merely various assorted Ethnic groups sharing the same island.

By: berenike

berenike — Wed, 03 Oct 2007 21:20:26 +0000

post on this subject

http://prodicus.blogspot.com/2007/09/is-britishness-merely-state-of-mind.html

By: berenike

berenike — Tue, 02 Oct 2007 23:32:24 +0000

My gift essay question for my Standard Grade English folio was something like “How I Feel About Being Scottish”. Though I may by now belong to an ethnic majority …

By: boeciana

boeciana — Tue, 02 Oct 2007 09:53:31 +0000

My accent is similarly treacherous – that’s why I put in the alternative qualification!

I would also repeat that I’m talking about how I perceive people, which is why I added the ‘happy to be considered Scottish’ – someone like Tony Blair is a funny case, since one would think he’s technically Scottish but I have no idea whether or not he would allow the label. That funny quasi-colonial class of people who went to public schools in Scotland can decide what they are for themselves. I don’t mean this in a mean way; it’s just that as far as I can can tell some people who’ve been to Glenalmond (or wherever) are quite sure they’re Scots, while others, well, aren’t.

By: Paulinus

Paulinus — Tue, 02 Oct 2007 09:34:51 +0000

For me, if someone has a Scottish accent, I’ll call them ‘Scottish’ (unless they insist otherwise); likewise if someone was born here and is happy to be considered Scottish regardless of accent (by this I include people with not-very-Scottish accents, and exclude folk who happened to be born here cos their mum was on holiday or whatever).

My accent changes a lot as I’m omething of a chameleon. After a morning in clinic with my East End punters, it has something of a Weegie burr. If I’ve been on the phone to my sister I sound as though I’ve just stepped of the train from Leeds with a whippet and a flat cap.

Mrs P is an Edinburger of English parents. she sounds English most of the time unless on the phone to her mates or in her cups – thereafter she sounds like an extra from Trainspotting

Not sure the accent test will do. Think about Tony Blair – remember his estuary accent on ‘Richard and Judy’? (remember too he’s Scots born and educated -well, Fettes – who grew up in Northumberland and Australia but lived most of his adult life in the higher echelons of London metropolitan life)

By: boeciana

boeciana — Mon, 01 Oct 2007 20:14:02 +0000

Seraphic: On the Cho vs McGonagall question – someone like Katie Leung who sounds as Edinburgh as they come, I’d describe as Scottish, and if asked for elaboration would add ‘originally Chinese’ or ‘of Chinese ancestry’ or something like that. For me, if someone has a Scottish accent, I’ll call them ‘Scottish’ (unless they insist otherwise); likewise if someone was born here and is happy to be considered Scottish regardless of accent (by this I include people with not-very-Scottish accents, and exclude folk who happened to be born here cos their mum was on holiday or whatever). If appearance suggests their family doesn’t go back to the Picts, this is a fact that would pertain to ‘origin’ or ‘ancestry’. I wouldn’t describe Cho Chang as ‘Scottish-Chinese’. However, how she would describe herself, I do not know and would not care to guess! Besides which, certain groups (like the Italians) in Scotland seem to consider their family’s origin as one of their major labels even after several generations. So, er, ask someone of an ethnic minority for a more informed answer! Does anyone else have a fuller answer?

By: aelianus

aelianus — Sun, 30 Sep 2007 22:07:36 +0000

While there are, as the previous comments have indicated, many features of British culture common to all four nations and many which overlap the different home nations, (and while it is indeed spurious to identify Gaelic culture with Scottish culture), there is a more obvious flaw to the whole idea of identifying specifically ‘British’ cultural themes. If someone says ‘there is no such thing as the genus of animal, only particular species’ it is a fools’ errand to try to find an animal which is only generically an animal with no specific difference. One would end up deciding that Jellyfish are the only animals. In the same way every actual Briton and British cultural tradition is found in one or other of the four nations this does not prove that these individuals and traditions belong exclusively to the home nation in question and are non-British. If one were to accept this completely circular argument one will end up designating as British only the purely generic characteristics of all four nations or those which have been exported to the Commonwealth. These are great goods, mixed monarchy, democracy and the common law, queuing, tea and decent beer. Nevertheless, all the particular elements of Britain are British too and it is only if one assumes in advance the Nationalist conclusion that Britishness is a construct that their British character could be denied.

By: Seraphic Single

Seraphic Single — Sun, 30 Sep 2007 19:37:54 +0000

To muddify cloudy waters, what does “Scots” mean now? In the Harry Potter movies, Professor McGonagall is a Scot (and also Jean Brodie, someone tell Dumbledore), but so is Cho Chang. Right? Yes? No? Is she as “much” as Scot as McGonagall or is there something about one’s family having lived in Scotland (and died for Scotland) since 1066 (or 1847) that makes McGonagall more “Scots” than Cho Chang?

Sorry to introduce this can of worms, which you may certainly ignore, but this is a question in Canada too. (And a highly unpopular one, I must say, since our obviously mendacious mantra hereabouts is “We are ALL immigrants.”)